Well, today I took the armature from my starter motor to a couple of local electrical engineering workshops to find out if they'd skim it as it has definitely got ridges across it. Both said it wasn't worth doing as it'd be cheaper to buy a new one. One said as they'd remove material it would probably affect reliability too.
I also queried a refurb on the dynamo and was told just bin it and buy a new one.
I'm no skinflint, but if there's still life in stuff why has it become less cost effective to repair and reuse. I'm told that when the vehicle was last running the starter worked fine. I find this throw away and replace attitude to be Madness.
I may just put the starter back together now it's clean and see how it goes when I'm finally at a stage to get stuff running again. Pics below of the offending article.
Unfortunately it's a sign of the times and lack of skilled workers.
Very frustrating though as it just creates more unnecessary waste when it could be reused :confused
It is totally unneccesary to throw it away.
As I said on another thread, about my diesel starter motor, I took it to a Firm where the "old boy" who founded it, still works part-time in a small shed on the site.
It is the attitude of the people who you took yours to, that keeps people like him in work.
He skimmed the commutator as a matter of course, considering it wrong to refurb the rest and not do that too.
I can confirm that the starter is strong and healthy.
He rebuilds dynamos too.
May I suggest you find that elusive "old boy" near you, who knows what he is doing.
The maths isn't hard. It will cost a business about £100/hr to employ somebody.
How long to fettle an old motor? couple of hours?
A factory can knock them out for £20 a pop.
I am sure if you had an honest discussion about cost, they'd help.
Chris.
I think that a lot of people simply have too big a set of overheads to make jobs like that worthwhile on a commercial basis. Factor in the potential for future aggro if there's a subsequent failure, and I would interpret their response as "I don't want the work".
Personally, I'd maybe consider doing that kind of job for myself, but not for others as it's just too much bother. You can buy a new one for £82 delivered; that's probably not even 1/2 hour of machine shop time.
Quote from: ChrisJC on Mar 14, 2024, 06:17 PMThe maths isn't hard. It will cost a business about £100/hr to employ somebody.
How long to fettle an old motor? couple of hours?
A factory can knock them out for £20 a pop.
I am sure if you had an honest discussion about cost, they'd help.
Chris.
Unfortunately neither place was up for any discussion. Both just said it wasn't worth it.
Quote from: GlenAnderson on Mar 14, 2024, 06:20 PMI think that a lot of people simply have too big a set of overheads to make jobs like that worthwhile on a commercial basis. Factor in the potential for future aggro if there's a subsequent failure, and I would interpret their response as "I don't want the work".
Personally, I'd maybe consider doing that kind of job for myself, but not for others as it's just too much bother. You can buy a new one for £82 delivered; that's probably not even 1/2 hour of machine shop time.
Yeah, I understand the rationale on their part but just find it frustrating and limiting. The first shop told me once set up his machine would perform the skim in under 4seconds, but it's the setting up that takes the time and makes it not cost effective. He was charging £50/hr plus vat.
I've not seen a replacement one for as cheap as £82 but at that price I understand why repair is pointless.
Here. 👍 (https://www.paddockspares.com/rtc3840e-dynamo-4cyl-petrol-and-diesel.html)
Cheers, I thought you meant the starter motor, but equally applies to the dynamo given that price.
I made a jig up to hold a BSA Bantam cylinder head in the lathe to skim and reprofile the combustion chamber.
It took a week of evenings, so probably 10-12 hours to design and make the jig.
It takes about half an hour to set up a head to be able to make a start.
It takes about ten minutes to do a head once it's in there.
So, £633 to do one head at £50 an hour. 😱
I have done three in the years since I made the jig, and even at the minimum wage that's north of £70 a head.
I would think that a competent machinist, doing your job for the first time (so factoring in a bit of head scratching that you wouldn't need to do next time) is going to be using up to an hour of their day. For a mate, or a regular customer, I can see them doing it. For some random stranger walking in? Not a chance.
I get the maths and effort/skill involved but still think it's a shame though. That random stranger walking in for the first time could just become a regular customer with an associate base of potential customers.
Given the replacement prices the common sense option is to buy new or even consider a dynamator and hi torque starter as replacements. The modern way things are I guess.🤷�♂️
Quote from: Alan Drover on Mar 14, 2024, 05:56 PMUnfortunately it's a sign of the times and lack of skilled workers.
I'm not sure I agree with this, I think those skilled workers just have to make X an hour to pay for their tools, building, insurance etc. And by time you have messed about with something for an hour or two with results that maybe can't be guaranteed, as the rest of the items parts are in unknown condition then it quite quickly becomes clear that you can't charge engineers hourly rates on something that potentially only has a few hours left in it once rebuilt.
I totally understand the sentiment. I really do. It's infuriating. But I also run a business so can see the potential for a mare and the resulting I'll feeling etc etc.
If I was in this boat I'd go to a place like the machine-shop or one of those other community DIY engineering places, I'd get on the lathe, skim it myself and if it doesn't work then I had a nice day out learning new things. If it works then I can strut about proud as punch and have a beer because I've got spare money burning a hole.
Sad, but it's not an indication of modern England, it's more an indication about a modern China.
It should not be an expensive job to put the armature on a lathe and lightly face off. If smoothing by hand, use glass paper not emery. Make sure to undercut the segments (knife blade) to ensure they remain insulated and not bridging.
Regards
Bill
I was struggling to find new drums for my old Mondeo which where out of true.
I remembered an Engineering firm near me that would do jobs for my former employer.
I called around and asked the young chap I first spoke to thought not. The old guy who came into the factory was still there running the place.
Leave them with us I'll have a go he said.
Next day he called to say they where ready. £40 each ! I was stunned.
Well, at least they should last a few more years. I hope.
Where in W Yorks are you? I have a small machine shop in Halifax, all I do is repair old stuff... I hate waste!
Quote from: GlenAnderson on Mar 14, 2024, 08:02 PMI would think that a competent machinist, doing your job for the first time (so factoring in a bit of head scratching that you wouldn't need to do next time) is going to be using up to an hour of their day. For a mate, or a regular customer, I can see them doing it. For some random stranger walking in? Not a chance.
I don't understand the root of this thread. I'm pleased others see the reality too. Unusual in an LR forum.
A business (not to be confused with a hobby) would have to put a one-off job like that out at £150, with VAT.. eg better part of £200, maybe £300, and still rather not do it. It's not surprising they weren't happy to see this work.
No business wants a potential regular customer like this, why inflict this injury? More profitable to pay 'em £50 to go away.
Er, yes, ex-factory it's a £20 item. If customers like that threaten friends... as well... there's reason to set the dogs on 'em.
Simple job to do on a lathe but I see there is no centre on the end of that armature shaft, so holding it accurately won't be easy.
It also looks like the bearing surface is worn on the pictured end, which won't be easy to correct.
Last time I refurbed a starter motor I found a NOS rotor ( Ex MoD ) so was able to just replace with new bushes and brushes as the field coils were OK
Quote from: Calum on Mar 15, 2024, 12:23 AMWhere in W Yorks are you? I have a small machine shop in Halifax, all I do is repair old stuff... I hate waste!
I'm not far from Fax, just up the road near Morley. If you'd like to pm me the shop address I'll happily call down at some point so you can take a look and see if it's doable/worthwhile. That'd be fantastic :cheers-man
Quote from: NoBeardNoTopKnot on Mar 15, 2024, 01:36 PMQuote from: GlenAnderson on Mar 14, 2024, 08:02 PMI would think that a competent machinist, doing your job for the first time (so factoring in a bit of head scratching that you wouldn't need to do next time) is going to be using up to an hour of their day. For a mate, or a regular customer, I can see them doing it. For some random stranger walking in? Not a chance.
I don't understand the root of this thread. I'm pleased others see the reality too. Unusual in an LR forum.
A business (not to be confused with a hobby) would have to put a one-off job like that out at £150, with VAT.. eg better part of £200, maybe £300, and still rather not do it. It's not surprising they weren't happy to see this work.
No business wants a potential regular customer like this, why inflict this injury? More profitable to pay 'em £50 to go away.
Er, yes, ex-factory it's a £20 item. If customers like that threaten friends... as well... there's reason to set the dogs on 'em.
I wasn't expecting it doing for nothing as I accept businesses are there to make a living, but just don't like to see something that could be reused thrown on the scrap heap for the sake of a relatively simple repair (if you have the equipment).
I also like to support local businesses and would have accepted that skimming may not be a long term solution, so no complaints from me if it subsequently failed. If as you say businesses don't want customers like me (or my friends) so be it, I'll go buy new replacements.
However, if we all did that and nobody sought repairs from these businesses they'd then have no business.
Hi,was
Maybe I was lucky, my father (who left school at 12, with no qualifications) was foreman of the Tool Room, at Briggs Motor Bodies on Croydon Aerodrome. He was responsible for making the tooling for car door locks for Ford Cars. His attitude was to tell the designers NOT to design the tools ... just give him a drawing of the part, and HE would design the tool (which they could then draw). He said it was easier working in meta l, than brooding over the drawing board.
Later, we worked for METAL PROPELLORS (who made the props for the R101 airship, and never looked back) For those that are not familiar with airships, the R101 crashed and burned (RED flames) on its maiden flight. The highly inflatable gas should have burned BLUE. Read all about it in Nevil Schute's autobiography "TOUCH WOOD". A real life ripping yarn. NS was involved in building the R100, which flew to America, Google might find something.
Metal Propellors specialised of fabricating stainless steel petro-chemical columns. Dad's bungalow was adorned with stainless steel gutters and drain pipes, gate hinges, door knob, and a boot scraper. He even made a stainless exhaust for his 1940s Austin 8. As the Stores had no stock of the diameter pipe he needed, he made a pipe (like a cardboard bog-role tube) by rolling stainless strip and seam welding, then bending the resulting pipe to shape. His car used to "hiss" down the road ... he had designed and built the silencer too.
While working in an old stable, just after WW2, he was asked to quote for making a metal box and a double ended stud. He quoted £5 for the box, and one shilling and sixpence, for the stud. The customer knocked him down to a shilling for the stud ... then ordered 500 of each. Dad's quote had include the price of the press tool, to make one box, so he tried to alter his quote, but the customer wouldn't discuss any other changes. Dad didn't argue, and very happily banged out 500 boxes, taking only a few seconds each. ££££££££ ... :cheers-man.
602
Quote from: Calum on Mar 15, 2024, 12:23 AMWhere in W Yorks are you? I have a small machine shop in Halifax, all I do is repair old stuff... I hate waste!
This makes the point in my earlier post.
Don't go to high-overhead workshops, but find the person who
will do it.
Even though I suspect that Calum is not the "old boy" of myth :)), some people do keep working for fun after retirement. To keep feeling valued, to keep the brain active, or to keep them off golf courses or dying of boredom. They are of an age with no children to support, or mortgage to pay.
If they've been doing it for 50 years, there is little head scratching, and the thing is dismantled in a few minutes with the tools he's been using for decades.
My starter refurb cost just over £70, including a new solenoid on the side
Most of its future life will be spent doing precious little, hanging about on the side of the engine - and only being used for starting, so tbh, I am not lying in bed worrying that it will pack up any time soon...
Each to their own of course, and I hope this forum has provided you with a solution, Littlelegs.
Unfortunately I am along way off retirement!!
Hi,
Did somebody ask the size of the box that my father had to make a press tool for? I think everybody concerned died a long time ago, so I can't ask, but I got the impression that it was only a few inches in area, and not very deep. The cost (£5) was in making the press tool, after which, making each box was negligible. Remember that wages were very low in those days.
At one time, Dad (who was self employed) was making £17 a week. Mum was worried about the lack of security, so found him a normal job .... at £3 a week.
The next bit concerns Barbara's and my history, but I won't be offended if you skip it.
I was demobbed from the RAF in 1967, lived and worked in Croydon till the property boom in the early 1970s. We sold that house, at 100-plus percent profit, moved to Swansea, where Barbara was born just before the Swansea Blitz, and bought a house for cash, in Penygroes, near Ammanford. It was the best house we ever owned, but not the best neighbours.
We caused offence by fencing the rear garden, to keep our Malaysian mongrel in. The man next door was upset about his young daughter decimating our pear tree and scattering the branches over our lawn. Her father told us to go back where we came from ....
Hmmm! My grandfather was born in Mumbles, in Swansea Bay. Barbara is a direct descendent of Thomas Levi, who started the Methodist movement in South Wales ... lots of grave stones, in the Swansea Valley, bearing the name Levi. Both Barbara and Sara (our daughter) are able to converse in Welsh. Barbara took Welsh to A-level, but only achieved a (second) pass at O-level.
OT. During an evening at a friend's house, she was introduced, to somebody on the telephone, as a friend from France (She does have A-level French). All went swimmingly, until the friend asked "Why are you speaking French with a Welsh accent?" Barbara denies that she has a Welsh accent.
Such fun!
602
Hi,
Probably OT, but my father was born in Stockton on Tees, but walked down to London in the late 1920s.
In the 1980s he heard himself talking on a tape recorder, and was aghast.
"I sound like Harvey Smith!" he moaned. (HS was a famous Show Jumper, often on TV).
602
It's good to know there are people around like Callum who still have the skills , tools and will to do these type of jobs.
The hard part of course is finding these people around the country. Maybe there should be some sort of list collated over time by club members / forum viewers ( with the relevant permissions / agreement from the little mesters concerned ) which could be stored on the website as a reference for others to use .
Regards Andy
", and bought a house for cash, in Penygroes, near Ammanford. It was the best house we ever owned, but not the best neighbours."
I lived in Gorslas in 1998, had friends in Penygroes and drove a bus load of service users to Ammanford daily. Did you know Don Jones who ran the petrol station in Gorslas? He went to school with Adam and for a 5' Welshman, drove the largest artic recovery truck I'd seen. Full of the ingenuity of someone who'd been around mechanisms all his life.