Just a thought or two on electric cars

[Ken]

I'm sure there was a thread on this but can't locate it. I came across a couple of items of interest on this. What started me looking is an article by Andrew Frankle of Motor Sport who has found that GM, Mercedes and Tesla among others are re assessing their involvement in electric cars in the face of falling sales, now projected to be 37% of total sales in 2027 instead of 68%.
So what does it take to make 1 car battery.
12 tons of rock for lithium
5 tons of cobalt minerals
12 tons of copper ore
3 tons of minerals for nickel
Move 250 tons to obtain
12 kg of lithium
14 kg of nickel
22 kg of manganese
13 kg of cobalt
100 kg of rams
200 kg of aluminium, steel and/ or plastic
The earthmover burns 1000 litres of diesel per 12 hours
After this you have a zero emission car !
Leaving out all of the other aspects of why it will not work. It has the prospect of destroying the car industry.

[Ken]

I forgot.
In order to supply just the UK need for EV's we would need
2 x the world's current cobalt production.
Almost the entire world production of neodymium.
3/4 of the world's annual lithium production
1/2 of the world's annual copper production

[Oilyrag921]

 The extraction of minerals does appear to be huge for a small amount of finished product -but that's what mining is like in many mining/manufacturing operations.  I do not see electric cars replacing petrol and diesel but I think that there are an awful lot of lobby groups who nonetheless would like to see the back of combustion engines, in spite there being nothing to replace them that could do the same job. 

[N]

The World is moving to electric cars. It may not be the final solution, but it is overall a positive step in the right direction.

Car manufacturers are not re-evaluating their involvement to electric cars, merely their current plans (which could mean anything from how many they make, to which models they launch, to which countries they invest their manufacturing in), you are somewhat misquoting the article. All the major car manufacturers are all in favour of electrification.

Your 'facts' about battery production have also been widely debunked - here are a just a couple correcting the source of the 'The earthmover burns 1000 litres of diesel per 12 hours' https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/dec/13/instagram-posts/instagram-post-misleads-about-lithium-mining-and-t/ and https://sonofgeektalk.wordpress.com/2022/11/11/debunking-the-caterpillar-meme/ and

[Wittsend]

I'll be dead before we know who was right.

[Theshed]

I had a fully electric car on test over the weekend.
The plan was to drive from Liverpool to just north of Oxford, spend the day, charge and return.
Car arrived with 96% charge showing and a range which should have left me with nearly 30 spare miles. Range dropped as I approached and charge points where indicated on the Sat-Nav. I plodded on as there where new charge points at my destination.
Twelve miles range left when I arrived, to find the new charge points had not yet been commissioned !
I then drove to the next nearest charge point, in limp mode, arriving with 4 miles to spare. There I had to wait my turn, download an Ap', then plug in.
It was a low current charger which gave me enough range after 2 hours to drive to a fast charger.
Now I admit better planning is key, if I knew the chargers where not Ok at my destination I would have planned a stop before arriving.
But why so many Ap's ? Surely just pay by card, like proper fuel.
Overall not a good experience, particularly the last few miles in limp mode. We need better and connected infrastructure.
Hybrid ? Yea, possibly. I want to go on a journey knowing I am going to arrive, without having to stop enroute for several hours.
The car itself was very good. Drove better than I expected. It just needed an engine.

[w3526602]

Drove better than I expected. It just needed an engine.

Hi,

So the answer is to carry a small petrol generator in your boot. I read an article in a magazine, about a home brewed project, with a battery powered motor, with the batteries constantly being recharged by a 125cc petrol generator set to run at "best condition". It achieved well over 100mpg, nearly 50 years ago.

At the time, somebody suggested replacing the petrol powered generator with one powered by LPG.  The Russian tundra fields are (so I'm told) full of methane ... whatever that means.

In Wales, there are mountains covered in bracken (which kills horses). Bracken can grow at 27 tons per acre. Surely somebody can think of a way of generating energy from this weed?

In the mean time, I test drove a Hyundai Kona electric car yesterday, Nice! But I let Barbara do the negotiating, from her sick-bed. Without enquiring too deeply, I think the car was circa £30,000, but we got an £8,000 trade-in (a lot more than I was expecting) for her Hyundai iX20, close to 4 years old, FSH, and 13,000 miles on the clock. I'm going to miss exiting Milton Keynes'roundabouts with smoke pouring from the front tyres.

The deal came with interest-free finance, so no point in adding any cash to the value of the iX20.

Last night, Barbara reminded me that we wanted a battery charging point installed next to the front door/meter box, so left a message on our builder's phone.

As the car will be registered in my name, we can regularise the insurance, with me being both the Registered Keeper, and Sole Driver. LV took some convincing that the Keeper and Driver need not be the same person. Shortly after DVLC VEHICLES went live in 1974, we received a letter from an irate lady, complaining that we had given her car to her chauffeur. She didn't drive, so her chauffeur was the named driver on the insurance, so had to be the Registered Keeper, else he couldn't tax the car.

[Rob_W]

The mineral costs may well be coming down as magnet and battery technology evolve. So, expect sodium to be needed and far fewer rare earth materials. Solid state batteries are also an option, fast charge and far less likely to combust.

Charging is another problem, and will be solved by a mix of technology, social changes and time. Many journeys are short, so recharging isn't an issue. Similarly as more charging points are added and we get used to it there's less of a problem: if I know I can get 150miles of charge in 10-15 minutes with a total range of over 350miles I can get most places on one charge, or stop off for a break every couple of hours. But we'd need most/many parking spaces to have charger points. Never said it was going to be easy.

Battery life may still be an issue, but again, more careful design may mitigate. If we stop designing cars to look like conventional cars so the battery can be removed with much the same hassle as changing a clutch a 10 year battery life on an expected car life of 20 years becomes reasonable. This also reduces the cost issues of minor accidents writing a car off.

We're 10-15 years off not being able to buy oil fuel based cars, and whilst I wouldn't get an electric car as a sole vehicle for the house it's getting towards viable for an urban run around.

[Theshed]

Yes, there has to be an easier way to change batteries. Some co-operation between manufacturers is needed, but I still think if we have to go electric then Hybrid is the way forward for quite a while yet.
As regards to charging points, many Councils and Electric Companies are offering incentives to have points installed so shop around for a good deal.

[w3526602]

Hi Rob,

As mentioned, Barbara's petrol burning car has taken four years to cover what most cars do inside one year. Not mentioned was that the nearest petrol station is about 3 miles away. From choice, I make a special journey, late at night, once a month, to refuel, as walking from the pump to the counter is a pain (literally). and takes time. OK, if I joined the 20th Century, I'd pay at the pump.

With Barbara being bed-bound, 24/7, I cannot foresee us making long journeys to visit our friends in South Wales, ever again.

I mentioned recently, the Citroen Ami, (Google) which appears to be the cheapest battery powered car available, at £8,500. It would probably fill all my needs ... until our daughter and her two ginormous children wish to visit us. I suspect that the Ami has seats for two small children (or carry a lamb and a basket of ducklings across an unploughed field)   

602

PS ... Hmmm! My PC did not object to the word "ginormous". Living language?

[w3526602]

I'll be dead before we know who was right.

Hi Alan,

Surely, if world resources are going to run out, that is a good reason to  PANIC BUY ... NOW!

Or buy shares in British Rail?

How many here remember the SCAMMEL WORKHORSE used by BR for local deliveries? It was a 3-wheeled prime mover, with an articulated trailer. The single front steering wheel gave it a fantastically tight turning circle, virtually pivoting about the centre of the trailer's axle, or possibly even less? I think Dinky, or somebody, made a model? Pictures?

I believe Land Rover, or somebody, made an articulated trailer version. More pictures?

Try this for size!

https://mechanical-horse-club.org.uk/models_intro.htm

Having navigated to the above link, click on the picture, get another picture of the rig at full lock.

602

[Smokey 11a]

The World is moving to electric cars. It may not be the final solution, but it is overall a positive step in the right direction.

Car manufacturers are not re-evaluating their involvement to electric cars, merely their current plans (which could mean anything from how many they make, to which models they launch, to which countries they invest their manufacturing in), you are somewhat misquoting the article. All the major car manufacturers are all in favour of electrification.

Your 'facts' about battery production have also been widely debunked - here are a just a couple correcting the source of the 'The earthmover burns 1000 litres of diesel per 12 hours' https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2022/dec/13/instagram-posts/instagram-post-misleads-about-lithium-mining-and-t/ and https://sonofgeektalk.wordpress.com/2022/11/11/debunking-the-caterpillar-meme/ and

Seem's to be a lot of guess work in that article, there's a difference between  real world and the theory in the article. Until recently (months) local main dealers had shed loads of old EV batteries waiting for someone to be able to actually get round to recycling them. Til the infrastructure is in place it's all smoke and mirrors. The only good thing about EV's I could MOT them in 20 min and being paid by the MOT it was easy money and a lot of it. Before anyone jumps in there's not time specified for a MOT.

[Littlelegs]

I have the option to have an electric lease car through work. This will cost me around £200/mth and have a range of around 300miles maximum. This is reduced in cold weather or depending on if you have the heater, radio, aircon etc switched on.

I would have to have a home charger fitted to make it viable, at around £800 cost to me, and sell my wife's car. This would then allow me to charge the vehicle at 28p per kWh at home on my current tariff. Work pay approx 30p per kWh for work mileage so charging at home is covered. However, due to my role and travel I'd have to charge on the commercial network, and in the areas I cover this costs 60-85p per kWh. As such away from home I'll be way out of pocket for charging and will end up paying for work mileage.

This makes it a less viable proposition for me, especially given that a guy in my team has ended up over £1000 down in charging fees. Add to that another colleague has had multiple issues trying to charge whilst out on the road with broken chargers, queues to charge and chargers that don't fit his vehicle due to the different connections. It all seems a bit chaotic and unworkable.

The only benefits are that the lease includes all servicing, tyres, tax and personal use up to around 10000 miles per year and is subsidised when compared with a personal lease.

The battery on a four year old colleagues lease vehicle was losing capacity and he queried replacement cost. The £16500 for a replacement battery effectively made the 4yr old vehicle scrap as no one will pay that. I find the whole EV thing a bit mad tbh. Sustainable and environmentally friendly they do not appear to be.

[w3526602]

Hi Littlelegs,

Thanks for indicating the price of a battery pack ... eg:£16,500. It gives me something to include in my ponderings.

I have already found a 40 horsepower motors on the internet, at £5000ish, intended for installation in canal boats. I think 40HP equates to about 53kW (assuming I am correct in thinking 750 Watts equals 1 bhp?) Judging by the photos, these motors are little bigger than a Land Rover starter motor, and have a Hard Spicer friendly drive flange. I have not investigated the price of matching controllers.

Yet again, my ladies are demanding my presence, in bed, for tiffin.

602

[Wittsend]

Be careful - you are heading into SVA and radially altered vehicle territory