Just a thought or two on electric cars

[Beowulf]

I forgot.
In order to supply just the UK need for EV's we would need
2 x the world's current cobalt production.
Almost the entire world production of neodymium.
3/4 of the world's annual lithium production
1/2 of the world's annual copper production

Indirectly connected to this topic, is the generation of electricity, after all, EV batteries need to be charged.

The BBC in their Click programme were talking about Wind Turbines. I`m not against these as an energy source in principle, but its important to understand that these, just like EV batteries, have very damaging impacts on the environment, both in their construction and in their end-of-life clean up.
We already knew, in their manufacture, these massive structures consume huge amounts of energy and resources. Now we`re told some truths the Greens won`t be shouting about and wouldn't want us to know, wind turbine blades are "almost indestructible" and "nonrecyclable". A photo showing lots of them (too many to count) just dumped in landfill, and its expected that by 2050 there will be 43 million tonnes of them in land fill   :ranting 

Not the panacea we`ve all been lead to believe, are they 

[Theshed]

BTW. First Lotus was indeed based on the Austin 7.
As where many other cars.
I believe the BMW Dixi was based on an Austin as was the first jeep, the Bantam ?

[dartymoor]

wind turbine blades are "almost indestructible" and "nonrecyclable". A photo showing lots of them (too many to count) just dumped in landfill, and its expected that by 2050 there will be 43 million tonnes of them in land fill   :ranting 

Not the panacea we`ve all been lead to believe, are they 

Sorry, I have a problem with this logic.

Up until very recently there has been very little need to recycle turbine blades - so why is there this expectation that such an industry magically pops up out of nowhere? There are already companies that do recycle them, and there will be others and better methods as demand increases. Right now demand outstrips the ability to recycle (which is still the case for tyres a hundred years on!) but nobody can say what's going to be the case in 26 years time.

There are other shortfalls like crashed Teslas being considered unrepairable and sold for the scrap value of their batteries. That seems to be true, but mostly due to other considerations like the usual repair specialists not having the skills or tools - yet. Give it another ten years and I expect that to change.

Electricity supply being insufficient too - again, it adapts. Looks at the UK's generation pattern and energy source over the past 20 years, it's hugely different. Why do people assume one thing will stay the same when literally talking about change?

There is a lot of FUD being spread about electric cars that doesn't stand up even to any amount of critical thinking, even stuff promoted by fairly well regarded sources.

</rant>

(Also, stuff being landfilled today will absolutely be the gold mines of tomorrow. We treat it like permanent storage but one day I strongly believe we will be recovering all this material)

[Theshed]

I was unaware of the Wind Turbine 'issue' but there are still mountains of old tyres around the country despite every few years another answer to the problem hitting the headlines. Each 'new' idea seems credible but as you say the demand for new tyres still outstrips the ability to recycle.
With regard to the Tesla and other Electric cars I watched a Tv programme about recycling accident damaged and scrap cars.
A great idea and a cool system. The cars where stripped down completely with almost all parts being reused or recycled.
They where also quite proud of their system of reusing batteries. However given that some of these cars where written off due to unknown battery damage how do they know they are safe, and if they do why scrap the car in the first place ?
For me there are far to many questions than answers. We may get there but can't see it in my lifetime.

[Peter Holden]

At our land rover meet I was talking to my friend who is a fireman.  They are very concerned about electric car fires.  A couple of weeks ago they were called to attend one on a rural road.  They were there for 8 hours before it was deemed safe to move it.  The recovery wagon was followed  by a fire engine back to the yard where it could be "made safe"  whatever that is.  Another safety issue apparently is that when a burning  battery makes contact with water hydrochloric acid is produced.  My friend says there is great concern within the fire service

Peter

[Beowulf]

At our land rover meet I was talking to my friend who is a fireman.  They are very concerned about electric car fires.  A couple of weeks ago they were called to attend one on a rural road.  They were there for 8 hours before it was deemed safe to move it.  The recovery wagon was followed  by a fire engine back to the yard where it could be "made safe"  whatever that is.  Another safety issue apparently is that when a burning  battery makes contact with water hydrochloric acid is produced.  My friend says there is great concern within the fire service

Peter

Hi Peter,
And of course there`s e-bike & e-scooter batteries exploding into fire & causing damage, injury and death. I think there were, on average, 1 every day last year 
 
An explanation curtesy of The Guardian :-
  "Lithium-ion batteries are designed to contain a massive amount of energy in a very small space," said Stephen Mackenzie, a fire safety consultant. "Each cell is filled with flammable electrolyte and electrodes that could short if they get damaged or are not properly maintained. This causes the cell to overheat."
He said that if one cell overheated, a process called "thermal runaway" could happen. It is a feedback loop where the cells heat very quickly and ignite neighbouring cells until the whole battery pack goes up in a chemical exothermic reaction, often emitting plumes of toxic smoke. The intense fires are hard to extinguish.
"Lithium-ion batteries can also reignite after they've been put out if moving them causes further damage or new short circuits in the battery," he said.
A crucial component is the battery management system, but if this is faulty or badly designed, problems such as overloading with current from an incompatible charger can trigger overheating, fire and explosion, according to Rusetm of E-Bike Batteries.

Frightening!

[Beowulf]

wind turbine blades are "almost indestructible" and "nonrecyclable". A photo showing lots of them (too many to count) just dumped in landfill, and its expected that by 2050 there will be 43 million tonnes of them in land fill   :ranting 

Not the panacea we`ve all been lead to believe, are they 

Sorry, I have a problem with this logic.....(Also, stuff being landfilled today will absolutely be the gold mines of tomorrow. We treat it like permanent storage but one day I strongly believe we will be recovering all this material)

Hi dartymoor,

The BBC made those comments, I used quotation marks. Did they carry out research and speak with industry or were they guessing     I hope you're right.
Your point about future recycling developments is a good one, but does that remove our responsibility for what we do now?
We always seem to be jumping into things with both feet because its expedient (convenient and practical although possibly improper), spending countless millions, ripping up the environment for resources at will and hoping for the best, and hoping future generations will have the money and a plan to clean up after us.
I apologize for ringing the same old bell, but Governments and Industry could have invested in Hydrogen powered electric motors years/decades ago, but no, they chose something with more immediate results, the new but very old technology of the battery. I am not against electric motors, its just the horrid battery I don`t like.

And as for finding these buried blades in the future, well maybe it`ll be an archaeologist who does    
Good luck dartymoor 

[Alan Drover]

A bit off topic but Nicola Sturgeon's fancy hybrid ferry needs a new battery already. It costs £1.5 million and parts are not available until 2025 so it's running on diesel.
How gullible are people! Green = naive.

[dartymoor]

We always seem to be jumping into things with both feet because its expedient (convenient and practical although possibly improper), spending countless millions, ripping up the environment for resources at will and hoping for the best, and hoping future generations will have the money and a plan to clean up after us.
I apologize for ringing the same old bell, but Governments and Industry could have invested in Hydrogen powered electric motors years/decades ago, but no, they chose something with more immediate results, the new but very old technology of the battery. I am not against electric motors, its just the horrid battery I don`t like.

Quite a few people would consider the world's governments (this isn't a UK issue - we're actually sitting in the middle of the pack of developed countries as far as adoption goes) to have been far from jumping in. The oil companies have been lobbying against any non oil based engine (electric, hydrogen, even biogas and biodiesel) for decades and they have been successful in stifling that competition and openly donating to political funds and buying politicians. Governments the world over have been dragging their feet on this for a very long time.

Many of the tabloid fear stories seem to come in waves and it's not hard to see their hand at work there too. Many of those claims have been found to be nonsense. Batteries are lasting much longer than predicted - there's a authentic report this week of a Tesla with 300,000 miles on it where the battery has only degraded 5%. Compare that to a petrol or diesel car and that's a lot of servicing costs (seen how much engine oil is now?!) avoided.

A few posts here (not from you) about the danger of fires in electric cars - yet hydrogen is far less safe. Building the infrastructure for that is going to be just as hard if not harder than Electric, and generation of Hydrogen is (so far) very inefficient at scale. Take up from manufacturers for H is also very slow because of such challenges with only (I think - please correct me) Toyota having a production car available. I did research this a few years ago as I was looking to invest in a start up that was building a British hydrogen car. I forget their name but when I learned that the range of the car was only 90 miles, and my nearest Hydrogen fill point was 85 miles away in Bristol, I kind of lost interest. It's not like you can fill up a few jerry cans and make the trip worthwhile. They've since dropped off my radar and I suspect they never produced any viable cars. I recall their business model was that they would only lease you a car with fuel costs included, not sell you one.

I don't own an electric car, by the way. I have a Series land rover, a Japanese petrol car, a French diesel 3.5t horsebox and an Indian motorbike. I have no skin in the electric game, I'm just an interested observer who tries to keep an open mind.

Electric cars are still a compromise but only in terms of range, and that's improving all the time (Several EVs are offering 1000km ranges and soon they'll be nudging 1000 miles in a single charge). People can pick and choose any number of scare stories and problems because they don't want to lose the convenience of petrol and diesel and feel threatened, But every year it's less of a compromise to drive electric and not that far into the future it will be the norm.

Best of luck to you too - sorry to rant.

[w3526602]

Hi,

I read a warning recently, not to try to "brim" a battery powered car, as you will be charged by the time it is plugged in, while the rate of charge reduces when cells are nearly fully charged.

Does that apply to the charging point nailed to the wall next to my front door? I don't think it will apply, but safest to ask.

Er ... do the public charging points have their own cables. As far as I am aware, my nearest public chargers are about a quarter mile away.

Going slightly OT. I have about a week before my new car will be delivered. I have only just realised that my present car does not have a spare wheel. Nor does it have a jack. Nor a wheel-brace. Unless they are sharing the engine bay. I have never found the need to go poking in its "secret little places" ... that is what its annual service is for.(Averaging once every 3000ish miles.)

A spurious thought. Wouldn't it be useful (for some), if the cross channel ferries were equipped with car charging points. I don't know if half an hour on the Chunnel trains, would suffice to refill empty batteries?

602

[Theshed]

Afraid you have to take your own cables, and not all cables are compatible with all charge points. For many you also need an Ap'. 
Nothing so simple as pulling up, entering your card and topping up.
I am not sure Ferries or the Chunnel would want to deal with the safety implications of charging onboard.
As for Spare tyres, very few cars have them fitted as standard these days. Strange how the manufacturers say this run flat 'goo' is as good as a spare. However the labels on these tell you that it is a temporary repair. 

[Worf]

EV's are already banned from some Scandinavian ferries due to fire risks. The thought of charging one in the chunnel would put me off using the train.

[Craig T]

The battery management systems in these cars are very sophisticated so don't try to second guess it by unplugging it every time it reaches 90% charge or something.
They are not old fashioned lead acid batteries in them and the car takes care of battery maintenance, balancing, charging and temperature control during charging. The charger supplies the power, the car controls where it goes. It isn't as simple as applying 300v DC straight across the positive and negative leads!

Craig.

[Wittsend]

The driver's handbook will tell you exactly how (and when) to charge up the batteries.
  Just read the manual !

My car came without a spare - just a small compressor and a can of goop 
Yet it came with a jack (of sorts) and a wheel brace.

Not for me!

I quickly sourced a matching spare alloy rim complete with correct with new tyre on eBay for £100 all-in.

Strangely my car has the recess for a spare in the boot space 

Only had to use it twice (in 8 years) to cover punctures. I just don't like the idea of using the goop or running a skinny "space saver" for any length of time 
Yet you see plenty of these running up and down the motorways at 70+ mph (I thought they were limited to 50 mph max).

[Craig T]

My Toyota is the same Alan, Has a jack, two wheel chocks and a wheel wrench but no spare wheel. In my case it's because the car is too small to carry a spare but I too sourced a new (Slightly scratched reject from the local Toyota dealer) and fitted a cheap tyre to it and keep it sitting in the back

I do carry a 12v compressor around too as I figure I'd rather stop every ten miles and top the tyre up than inject the sealer into it. I have used the spare twice in 10 years, once when I got a chunk of steel in the tyre and another time when I couldn't be bothered to stop on the way home to inflate it again as it was getting dark.

My partners Yaris has a space saver. It's a strange thing to drive on and not sure I'd be happy having it on the front end. It's inflated to around 80psi as well and speed limited to 50mph I think. As it's so small and high pressure it loses pressure every year so part of the service to top it up again each time I'm doing the oils and waters.

Craig.