109 v 88

[22900013A]

Hi,

 
If you want a rare SWB, seek out an 81"!

I believe they made 200 ... half with a Rover Engine, half with the Rolls Royce engine from the Champ ... for Army "suitability" trials ... interchangeability of spares, etc.

I can't remember why they decided they didn't want the Champ. 

602 (Who contrived to squeeze a BMC 2.2TD into a Champ ... about 50 years ago ... and found it was cheaper to run than Barbara's Hillman Imp, but only because diesel cost a lot less than petrol per gallon)

The 81" always had the Rolls Royce engine, there was no need or purpose in extending the wheelbase by 1", it was done solely to accommodate the much bigger engine.

You are correct there was never a 109" series 1 station wagon, as it was never offered with a diesel engine. The series 1 lwb utility chassis is quite unlike the station wagon chassis. They were not commonised until the series II appeared.

Many more lwb were built than swb, some export markets not even offering the 88". Few have survived as they were usually workhorses, and less desired meant often worth more as parts donors for an 88". The home market was more balanced, but it was mainly utility and military orders filling the 109" order books, with private buyers preferring the 88".

[Craig T]

I was looking at the Dunsfold collections Rolls powered 81" the other day and only then realised it was the rear axle that got moved back. Not quite sure why, I didn't climb under it to investigate. Maybe it was purely to allow a longer propshaft?

https://www.dunsfoldcollection.co.uk/collection/series1/81-rolls-engined-military-trials#v

Craig.

[Mycroft]

I think we mix 'popularity then or now' with sales figures. Except in the first year or so of production, buyers bought rather more 109s than 88s.
You had to have a need for an 88, and not everyone had that, 88s are not as practical, they bought more 109s.

88s were LESS popular with buyers.

However as 88s & 109s progressed thru' the food-chain it is the 88 that better survives. Hence popular now.

According to Gaydon records, 88" IIas took up over 57% of the UK Land Rover market, with petrol 88" models being by far the most common type sold (41.6% of all UK sales).

[22900013A]

I think we mix 'popularity then or now' with sales figures. Except in the first year or so of production, buyers bought rather more 109s than 88s.
You had to have a need for an 88, and not everyone had that, 88s are not as practical, they bought more 109s.

88s were LESS popular with buyers.

However as 88s & 109s progressed thru' the food-chain it is the 88 that better survives. Hence popular now.

According to Gaydon records, 88" IIas took up over 57% of the UK Land Rover market, with petrol 88" models being by far the most common type sold (41.6% of all UK sales).

This is true, but with export figures included the lwb was the biggest seller. Apparently the most common type was a 109" truck cab. Also worth remebering quite a lot (although still very much a minority) of export vehicles ended up being sold in the UK, for example the searle conversions.

[Mycroft]

True. While the LHD 2.25 petrol utility 88" was the largest selling individual model overseas, the 109"(utility)  outsold the 88" comprehensively abroad in RHD export petrol (72%) and RHD export CKD petrol guise (65%), leading to higher overall numbers of 109" utility IIAs sold (55.5% overall by my reckoning).

[NoBeardNoTopKnot]

Thus the definitive answer? From the date it was possible to buy either, which sold the most? The 109.

1. Stereotypical worldwide 109 buyer was a business or the military.
2. Stereotypical UK 88 buyer was a farmer.

It's certain some were private buyers, only not in great number. Suspect they were middle-England and bought the 109 CSW or the huning/shooting crowd. But that's only he UK. There were more business and military customers worldwide hence more 109s sold. The 109s had a harder life and at 15-20 years old, 88 or 109 - these were just 'old vehicles' of little or no value. The places they wound-up were not businesses, thus not kind to 109s.

Present day: Now on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th.... UK owner, with the odd firewood/ local-tip run, listen to the party-line and present owners would have us believe ownership motives are the same as the first buyers.

There's umpteen 88s to every 109 thus by dint of survival rates it's a moot point.

[w3526602]

Hi,

I am (or was) 5ft-10ins tall with a 29.5" inside leg measurement. Barbara was 5ft- 4ins tall, with a 29.5" inside leg measurement.

It required a degree of effort, for me, to clamber up into the driver's seat. She never complained, but I'm guessing that Barbara found it more of an effort.

What are the respective heights of the tops of the seat cushions?

I'm guessing that LWB have greater ground clearance than SWB, which will look good on paper, but surely its the break-over and departure angles that are important ... and sometimes the roof height?

LWB are appreciably heavier. Accelerating a mass requires energy, which is going to cost fuel ... so buy a diesel ... cos they don't "do" acceleration.

LWB are taller, so may not fit into your garage, assuming you want/need them to fit.

When you get down to it, it's "horses for courses", or, what is on offer when its needed.

I can't remember seeing a film of our Late Majesty driving a LWB round the Royal Estates. Anybody?

I'm assuming that "coilers" (90" and 110") have a different image?

602

[22900013A]

Most Royal Land Rovers were 109"s, so although videos may not exist, the vehicles certainly did.

[22900013A]

Thus the definitive answer? From the date it was possible to buy either, which sold the most? The 109.

1. Stereotypical worldwide 109 buyer was a business or the military.
2. Stereotypical UK 88 buyer was a farmer.

It's certain some were private buyers, only not in great number. Suspect they were middle-England and bought the 109 CSW or the huning/shooting crowd. But that's only he UK. There were more business and military customers worldwide hence more 109s sold. The 109s had a harder life and at 15-20 years old, 88 or 109 - these were just 'old vehicles' of little or no value. The places they wound-up were not businesses, thus not kind to 109s.

Present day: Now on the 2nd, 3rd, 4th.... UK owner, with the odd firewood/ local-tip run, listen to the party-line and present owners would have us believe ownership motives are the same as the first buyers.

There's umpteen 88s to every 109 thus by dint of survival rates it's a moot point.

Well they weren't buying CSWs as they didn't exist until 1982, but I'd agree most station wagons were going to private buyers, with a few exceptions (minitrek had a fleet for example).

[Peter Holden]

We have a selection of series land rovers in our family, the 2 S2s are diesels though one will be returning to petrol when I can get enough time to build the engine.  The most driveable is the S1 107 pickup which has a fully balanced and ported 2l petrol engine in it, whisper quiet and sits on the motorway at 60+ and pulls well up hills, the downside is that it has the turning circle of a barge, another bonus is with its Clayton heater the truck can gets nice and toasty in winter.  The best offroad one is our 51 80" which has a 2.25 petrol engine and anH suffix S2A all synchro gearbox, it goes really well.  Best allrounder is the 58 S2 which does go exceptionally well with its 5 bearing diesel - this is the one that will be going back to the 2L petrol engine which has had the same treatment as the engine in the 107.

They are all different (even the 2 S2s which are only a year apart) but they all are best for one or 2 different roles and we are in a position tto choose which to use.

Peter

[Exile]

So, I didn't take account of overseas sales, where the LWB predominated.

Moving on, it appears that meeting the demand for a long wheelbase Land Rover overseas was still a factor in the early 1980's, as it is said this is the reason that the Stage 2 investment concentrated on bringing the One Ten to the market first, whilst the Ninety was launched over a year later.

[NoBeardNoTopKnot]

Curious about survival rates I had a look on https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk.

It's not as bad as I thought.  In 1995 there were roughly 3 x as many 88s. On UK roads, seems those 'actual and active', hence licensed, today:

1880 = 109
9702 = 88

 I've ignored the SORN number - who knows how many of those declared SORN still exist? Thus, licensed, just over 5 x as many 88s survive.

[NoBeardNoTopKnot]

I note the graphs level-out. Numbers are fiarly stable amongst both - I'd guess 'classic' status aids this.

Only, what is going on Here?

Roughly the same number of 88s are licensed as SORN. Fair enough. But...

Twice as many 109s are SORN as licensed? What is it about a 109 that explains 109 owners having double the proportion sent to SORN?

[Wittsend]

.... perhaps it's because they can't bleed the brakes 

 

[NoBeardNoTopKnot]

No more daft than my explanation! It is odd, yet numbers don't lie. The stats say, 109 owners are twice as likely to SORN what in all other respects is the same thing.

That's a stark difference. Makes no sense?