is it just me

[Peter Holden]

Q plate is a possibility, request for an IVA is also sometimes a possibility and the radically modified route should be the way that any electric conversion goes if there is any modification to the chassis

Peter

[Clifford Pope]

I understand all the arguments about historic cars, authenticity, etc and half of me of course agrees with it.

But I also have a feeling of what does it all matter? Comparing old cars with other collectible items, it does seem odd that we impose such strict and very selective rules.
Old boats have always been modified and rebuilt since time began. Historic yachts have routinely been lengthened, had their rigs altered, had their structures replaced,etc, so that hardly anything of the original vessel remains. Old warships have been converted into yachts, paddlesteamers into screw propulsion. The Egyptian presidential yacht was formerly the royal yacht, and took part in the opening ceremony of the Suez canal in 1869. It has been altered on a scale unimaginable if viewed in Land-Rover terms.

Houses likewise are endlessly modified, structually and visually. Furniture is modified, gardens remodelled, and so on.Classic diamonds are cut up and sold off as parts!

The list is endless, but for some reason cars are sacrosanct. It's an almost racist view on preserving the purity of the bloodstock. Talk about eliteism!

tongue slightly in cheek

[Ian F]

I agree Clifford, but the argument could be that motorised vehicles (unlike all the other items you mention) could be regarded as potentially lethal - costing lives and money if not properly regulated.

Ian F

[Clifford Pope]

I could reply that boats can be pretty lethal too. And as for diamonds - surely the pursuit of wealth is the most lethal of the lot? 

[diffwhine]

Judging by recent events in Sicily, you are probably correct.

I think the underlying point here though is whether we (or any other car club) should pro-actively police this sort of thing? In my view - we should not.

If DVLA approach car clubs and ask them to act as their eyes and ears, I think it places us on a very sticky wicket and I would not advocate supporting this.  I do not have any issue with the DVLA or any other legitimate agency approaching the club and requesting an authoritive opinion on a case by case basis. That is entirely right and fair. It is not our responsibility as as club to make judgements unilaterally.

Yes we have an obligation to protect and defend our "brand and marque", but at the end of the day, it is up to the individual to seek advice on any prospective purchase.

[Peter Holden]

My concern is always a safety issue.  There is something to be said for rebuilds or restorations being inspected before they are allowed back on the road and I think that is definitely the case with radically modified vehicles.

Peter

[diffwhine]

That's a very fair point. From a legal perspective even without an MOT, the owner is responsible for ensuring that the vehicle is in a safe and roadworthy condition. I absolutely agree that if something were spotted which was clearly unsafe, then we should say so.

It just goes back to my original thought - should the Club be responsible for proactively doing this or should it be down to the relevant authorities? We all know that the authorities do not have the capacity to investigate these cases and usually will only do so after some ghastly event. I just worry about us voluntary unpaid members of a car club being seen as doing DVLA's job for them pro-actively rather than reactively.

I'm all for supporting and helping DVLA - that's without question, but the terms of engagement should be from them approaching us for comment or opinion.

Is there a mechanism whereby private individuals can report a problem vehicle? That would make far more sense to me.

[Wittsend]

To a degree I agree with Clifford et al.

Does it really matter in the grand scheme of things 

BUT

The potential owner would be breaking the law - evading paying tax

and secondly duping a newbie buyer into spending money on something that is not correctly advertised and of dubious legality.

Buyer beware ...

As a club we can't get involved.
Over the years I've been lent on and warned off to mind my own business. Individually we could be putting ourselves at risk. When these sellers realise "we" are on to them they can get very nasty. They know full well what they are doing 
If it really does make your blood boil then report such vehicles to the authorities and let them deal with it. I understand that even with their limited resources they do their best to weed out these blatant tax evaders. People do get caught and vehicles do get crushed.

[diffwhine]

Precisely my view Wittsend. We may not like it, but we are not the law.

[Peter Holden]

There used to be a system for reporting suspect vehicles but that seems to have gone by the wayside.  I can check with the FED, it is what we pay our money for

Peter

[Exile]

I am not so "liberal" towards tax cheaters, unsafe bodgers and the rest.

If the knowledge base on here cannot be used to uphold the Law or offer just a little protection to potential SII/A buyers, then that is a shame.

If the Club VRO - at his discretion -  simply "suggests" to DVLA that they may wish to take a closer look at a certain vehicle, without stating anything like "it's definitely dodgy", does that really put him or the Club at risk?


Should we really just "look the other way"? 

[diffwhine]

I would agree that the occasional discretionary nod in the right direction could be prudent. I just don't think we should be seen to be being proactive on this. If there was a reporting mechanism for private individuals, then I'd happily use it.

[autorover1]

I have pointed out errors in listing  or other fairly obvious "Odd"  looking Land Rovers to staff at Brightwell's Auctioneers who are just down the road to me. It has always been  on my own behalf, and certainly not as a representative of any of the car clubs of which  I am a member or part of the club management structure.  They know me & often take it on board what I say but have said that they will most likely defer to what the owner has stated as they are acting on their behalf.   

[geoff]

This discussion is eternal !

Thank goodness I say !

Mechanism to report ? Who knows ?

Club to police, hmm , definitely not!

What do we do ?

Don't have a definitive answer but my feeling is we should highlight and discuss vehicles .. why ?

Because many here ( lurking in all probability ) as potential first time and innocent purchasers could save themselves eternal grief and financial stress by " learning " about what to look out for.

If it saves only one person a year that is a good thing and if it fires a fcuk into the crooks then I'm all for that too.

Not forgetting of course this sort of topic is usually a barnstorming good read and perfect for making steam come out of our ears ..  Lol !

👍🤠💕

[Beowulf]

This question is not dissimilar to that of the relationship between the Police and the public. It`s often said that without public help, the Police would find their job of detecting crime & finding the offender much harder. Members of the public who pass on information or suspicion's to the Police, are not decision makers, the Police decide how to use that information and its the same at the DVLA.

After reading wittsend`s frightening story, no one would say the club should act as an intermediary between the seller and a buyer, or potential buyer, of a dodgy motor or any motor. However, I see no harm in the club alerting the DVLA to possible illegal behaviour, where our suspicions passed a reasonable criteria.  And like Exile, I to think it would be a shame if we adopted a non-intervention policy, I find looking the other way an unpleasant view. I`ll quickly qualify that suggestion by accepting, only if it were possible to do so, given the constraints of our voluntary and limited resource's.

Clifford makes a good case, but the question of when a modified Land Rover loses its identity and becomes something else, is a very different question. Points of legality (The Trade Description Act), personal taste and safety, make it a very different can of worms