Clutch help needed please.

[2 Du]

Hello everyone,
I've been a member of the club for a couple of years now, and had intended to properly introduce myself and my project right away. However, I had sent my 1967 Series 2A down to a chap in Llandeilo for some of the restoration work I was unable to do and when he returned it the work he had done was so atrocious that I I nearly bust into tears. Since then have been undoing and re-doing some of the work he did and doing all the work he said he was going to do but never did. Not only messing up my budget but also really cocking up my time scale.

So, sorry I have never introduced myself and I'm going to procrastinate a bit longer, although I will one day write the full story but now I am right up against a deadline and I really need your help.

Clutch issues;

I have restored the "bean can", replaced the slave cylinder and rebuilt the master cylinder with a seal kit. The linkage has been cleaned and replaced, a bit of wear on the operating lever but the spherical bearing was good and I replaced the nail that served as the clevis pin in the clutch shaft lever to connecting tube as well as fitting the rubber grommet into the bell housing. Refurbed the push rod to the slave cylinder with a new clevis pin and spring through the push rod fork. Refitted the operating lever return spring. ( all as Page 10-B, Fig. B1-10 Green Bible )

I set up the clutch pedal height,M/C push rod play and S/C push rod as per the manual ( I think ! ) and filled and bled the system.

Brakes are all working well and on depressing the clutch pedal the whole mechanism appears to work with the slave cylinder/ push rod/ operating lever all moving accordingly.

The pedal returns to height but upon depressing it a second time it moves a short distance before becoming locked, stiff and firm but unable to travel any further.

If I place my hand under the S/C push rod I can move the whole mechanism upwards, against pressure, and the cycle can be repeated.

Fitting the return spring has no effect.

I have tried re-adjusting M/C push rod and S/C push rod but to no avail. I can get it to do 1 depression before the pedal will go no further and the cranked operating lever will not rise without help.

I know I am missing something but don't know what and struggling to get my head around what can be wrong. PLEASE can you help?

I really need to get this project moving and although there is still plenty to do I am being held up by not being able to get the clutch working. Arghhh !!!

Many thanks in advance and as I said at the beginning I WILL introduce myself properly and tell my story once I get some space back in my head.

Tarquin

[diffwhine]

Welcome and I'm sure we can provide some help on this.

I'm guessing from what have described, that your vehicle is not running yet? Therefore you probably can't describe whether or not the actual clutch is engaging and disengaging properly.

If the transmission tunnel is out, remove the gear lever assembly and have a look at the clutch through the top hole in the bell housing. When the clutch is pressed, do you see full movement? When the pedal is released, does the clutch appear to release fully? If not, the next time you press the pedal, it will go hard and run out of travel. It could still be a hydraulic adjustment issue. It could (but less likely) be an issue with the release bearing area, or a problem with the clutch itself. Do you know what clutch is fitted?

Some photos would help here if possible.

[2 Du]

Thanks Diffwhine. The vehicle is not running at the moment but was driven into the workshop. When the rogue mechanic returned the vehicle he said he had been unable, despite many attempts, to bleed the clutch, but that "it works if you pump it a few times". I did drive it up my hill but can't remember if I changed gear or not. Since being in the workshop the only change to clutch related parts is as I described before.

Not sure what clutch plate/assembly was fitted and I'm not sure I would trust that anything that was promised was done. Certainly the clutch was accessible as a 300 TDI was fitted.

I will hopefully tomorrow have a go at your suggestions as transmission tunnel is out and report back.

Cheers.

[Rangieman]

I had a similar issue with my Series 2. The flexible hydraulic clutch hose had a twist in it so it was restricting flow. Even with the standard clutch setup it was still a bit on the heavy side. I think it makes it worse having a modern car as a daily and then hopping into the Landy at the weekend!
My latest mod was converting the clutch line up to the larger 1/4" diameter piping, from the OE 3/16".
This gave me a noticeable reduction in clutch pedal pressure. But it will never be as good as a Series 3 using the older external system.

[Wittsend]

You can not fail to bleed the clutch hydraulics 

It can all be done with gravity.

With the clutch system it's so simple, BUT you must replace everything in the system.
Master cylinder, or seals if the bore is OK. The flexi hose and the slave cylinder. No good just replacing parts when you don't know the provenance of what you are dealing with.
LR recommend that the rubbers in the hydraulic be replaced every 3 years - not 40 years.

To bleed the clutch system just open the bleed screw on the slave and wait. Clear, clean fluid should flow out. You can speed things up and force any air bubbles out by a few gentle pressings of the pedal. Use plenty of red brake grease up the inside of the slave and fit the rubber dust boot.

If it's a keeper worth considering fitting a s/s braided PTFE flexi hose. You'll get a firmer pedal and be future-proofing for hose failure.

PS - Take the slave return spring and throw it away as far as you can manage. LR quickly dropped the idea of a return spring. It's not needed, and doesn't help clutch action.
Just make sure the pedal pivot and bush are oiled occasionally - that the pedal can move freely in the housing without anything attached.

[2 Du]

Ok. So thanks for the contributions so far. I realise the only part not renewed was the Flexi hose. It looked good and obviously fluid can move through it but I have no idea how old it is.

I have removed the gear lever assembly and had a look inside. I can see the "thrust bearing" move forward when the operating lever is moved but it doesn't return on its' own - I can ease it back with a screwdriver ready to be pushed forward again.Is it sprung and should it move back on it's own? Not sure if it is actually moving the cover assembly. Should I see that? What I see is it moving forward to engage with the cover, but with no resistance.

The pedal still becomes stiff as mentioned.

So does that point to the Flexi hose?

Spring has been flung!

Can't manage to get any decent photos at the moment - will try again.

Really appreciate your help.

[diffwhine]

Press your clutch pedal and observe the thrust unit. Crack off the bleed niple on the slave cyclinder. If the thrust unit immediately reverts to the normal position, its a hydraulic issue - probably a collapsing hose if all else has been covered. If it does not immediately return, then it could be an issue with the release mechanism, but for them to jam in service is rare. More likley to be a hydraulic issue - don't trust an old hose no matter how good it looks.

[Wittsend]

Here are a couple of mods you might make to make future servicing of the clutch system easier.



Here I have welded 2 of 5/16" UNF screws to the slave cylinder bracket, to make 2 up facing studs. This means you can fix the slave mounting nuts from above - in the engine bay. Makes replacing the clutch slave a doddle.




To make bleeding the clutch system even easier I have replaced the slave bleed screw with an extend length of 3/16" OD copper pipe. This means you can access the remote bleed screw from under the vehicle instead of messing around trying access the bleed screw through the little access hole in the footwell.

 

[Paul.W]

Might be something going wrong in the rebuilt master cylinder - fluid getting the wrong side of a seal, or a vent not being uncovered in the released position?

[2 Du]

Ok, so I'm back again. Thanks for all the suggestions and help so far.

Update now I have had some time to investigate.

I have replaced the Flexi hose with a new one and re-bled the system - nothing changed.

BUT, what I have discovered is that I have what appears to be the early, 3 prong, 9 inch, coil clutch cover.

Now please correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is this; having fitted a 300tdi this should be replaced with a 9.5 inch diaphragm clutch and that it is the "spring" pressure from the cover assembly that pushes the operating lever/ S/C push rod etc back. If I manually return the thrust plate with a screwdriver the operating linkage all appears to work correctly i.e. I am providing the service of the diaphragm.

At the moment the thrust plate doesn't even seem to be meeting the 3 prongs of the cover let alone start to depress them. Difficult to see in there but it definitely isn't a diaphragm.

If this is all correct then I conclude that the issue isn't the M/C, Flexi, or S/C, linkage etc but that the wrong ****** clutch has been fitted and although a pain to have the box out and buy a new clutch it will solve the problem.

What do you think?

LOF have a sale on at the moment and I'm not sure how long it goes on for but as you all know - every penny counts! Is the LOF one the correct one?

I would show some photos but I haven't figured out how...

[diffwhine]

I have some Borg and Beck 9 1/2" new clutch plates and cover assemblies suitable for the 2A clutch system here in my parts stock. Might be able to save you a few ££s if you want decent quality OE spec kit. Drop me a PM if you are interested.

[2 Du]

So just to say thank you for the help and let you know what is going on.
 
After useful input from you guys and some further investigation it seems the wrong clutch has been fitted so I am going to split the box and have a proper look before deciding what the next move is.

When I have the answer I will come back and report my findings.

Cheers.

[Wittsend]

This picture shows the difference between the Series 2/2A clutch and the Series 3 clutch.

If yours has the Series 2/2A actuation mechanism on the driver's side of the bell housing then you need the Series 2/2A clutch, the one with the central boss. Matters not what engine is fitted.

Many people have made this mistake 

Also ... many have fitted the clutch plate the wrong way round.
The plate is clearly marked flywheel side, yet people don't seem to realise this is important