I know that members, myself included, have posted photos of parts lists and workshop manuals on the forum. While thumbing through a parts list I came across the copyright rules which state that no form of retrieval by any electronic or other means is permitted without permission in writing.
How does this rule stand for posting on the forum?

I would imagine that copyright would have been transferred to J&LR and they can grant use.

Anything we have in the library should hopefully have been authorised for club use.

Unless anyone knows otherwise.

I'm not familiar with UK copyright laws, but over here on the continent works are protected for 70 years after the original author - or more in general the maker - has died. Whether you reproduce (part of) the work in print or on a website makes no difference. You may in fact only "use" the work with written consent of the maker/author.

However, there's always a however, you may use small parts of the work, as long as you cite the author. I think the next passage from the Copyrightaid forum applies to your question - and which I cite without written permission of the author 😎
Richard

That just leaves the group of postings which you would like to use but either you cannot contact the authors or they have refused permission. Provided that you comply with the fair dealing rules, you may take limited quotations by virtue of
section 30 (1ZA)of the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988. The basic rules are that you acknowledge the source of the quote (ie the author or his/her handle), and that you use no more than is strictly necessary for your purposes. Where, effectively, you need to quote pretty much the entirety of a particular posting, this may be fair dealing provided that a disinterested third person would think it was reasonable in the circumstances

Quote from: Archie on Aug 19, 2024, 05:41 PMAnything we have in the library should hopefully have been authorised for club use.

I am more concerned about items not in the library. I was going to photo an illustration from my parts list for the Land Rover 110 to 1986 when I came across the rules in the front of the book.

The same applies to photos you source from a book or the internet. Tread carefully when using images exploited for the maker by publishers or companies like Getty Images! You wouldn't be the first webmaster sued for using one bleeping image without paying for it.

Would this mean we should be particularly careful in the General discussions section, which is open to the general public?

Richard

Some cans of worms are best left unopened...

I think we need to know where the club stands on this? Can we quote/photograph pictures and text from Land Rover publications that aren't in the library? It wouldn't be good for the club if it fell foul of copyright laws.

My view is that if we ask, the answer will be no. Knowing how JLR work, asking will not get a positive result.

If anybody is petty enough to challenge us, it will start with a cease and desist notice anyway and we can respond to that.I genuinely do not think this is an issue we should push too hard.

If it aint broke, don't try and fix it...🤫😉

Unless someone somewhere is creating a revenue stream from the info used I doubt anyone would give a toss.

Quote from: Adam1958 on Aug 19, 2024, 07:04 PMUnless someone somewhere is creating a revenue stream from the info used I doubt anyone would give a toss.

There are firms out there creating a revenue stream from this very thing.

If you are quoting, best to give a link to the document, not post the document.

I'll play it safe and just quote page numbers of relevant manuals in future.

A citation is quite alright, as long as you comply with the Copyright, design and patents act (esp. 1ZA): fair dealing, acknowledging the author (or company if the author is employed by that company), no more than is necessary.

I've been a literary translator for 20 years. Copyright was my business model, my income. I've been fighting publishers for almost that entire period for better working conditions, more balanced contracts, and yes, more money. And with the advent of the e-book, we've also been fighting people who offer electronic copies of books, sometimes by the thousands, in a single download, on internet market places like eBay, Marktplaats, leboncoin, ... For financial gain, but also just for the fun of it. We contacted them, explained our situation, asked them politely to refrain from such activities, if needs be asked (but also summoned) the provider to remove the advert or shut down the account for reasons of copyright infringement. Unless of course the server is located in some Outbackistan. Than you're just buggered.

On the other hand, DRM, digital rights management, has gone too far, I think. When I buy an e-book, for instance the Original Technical Publications, I'm allowed to use it on one (1) designated device, say my laptop. If I also want to use it on my desktop, I have to buy another copy. If my designated laptop explodes, I have to contact the publisher and ask them to renew the license for another device. As if you go to a bookstore to buy a paper book, but on the condition that you only read it in the red armchair in your living room. If you want to read it in bed, buy another copy... That is silly, no, silly squared.

So, yes, I think there are "issues", grey areas, but I think Land Rover, or JLR, or Tata, or whoever's owning Land Rover at the moment, has only to gain by us looking up numbers of parts to buy, reading up on ways to fix old Land Rovers and keep the memory alive.

Richard

An interesting discussion / way of whiling away an idle hour but for me I'll just carry on as normal until the webmaster advises us to stop posting items from the parts book and manual .... reckon it won't be in any of our lifetimes.

Anyway, doesn't the Club Forum members section have electronic versions of the Bibles available for free download

I believe our forum and website are fully compliant with copyright law.

We do not allow links to other websites who blatantly post up scanned versions of workshop manuals & parts and other copyrighted material, often for money.

All our scanned WSMs, parts, newsletters and service instructions are behind the membership firewall - the material is only available to paid-up S2C members. Much of the scanned material has been made for the club by our members.

Being members of the ALRC (Association of Land Rover Clubs) gives us certain privileges such as free use of the original black LR oval badge. I don't think JLR are too bothered by what we do, they have bigger fish to fry.

Nothing we post is for profit or gain.

I believe what I (and other forum users post) as extracts from LR documentation to be "fair use". We don't publish or post whole or complete extracts from the manuals in the public domain.

Post like this are IMHO fair and compliant.



Often "highlighted" to make the point of the post clearer.

I shall continue until I receive the "cease & desist" letter.



Posting of images/pictures captured or scanned of the internet can be tricky.
We, you should give our credit to the photographer or publisher.
For example, we link to a download of the OVLR monthly newsletter, viewable in the members only section of the form. We have their permission.

The photographer always retains copyright of images they create.
People who post images here retain copyright but by posting on here have "agreed" that we can use the images to the benefit of the club/forum.

Some photographers have watermarked their images.

Over the years there have been one or 2 stroppy people who have demanded that their material is removed from the forum. On a case-by-case basis I decide whether to comply. Sometimes it's easier just to remove material. Sometimes I tell them to get lost and read the Terms of Use policy for the forum & website.

It is, or can be a veritable minefield out there and I suggest you/we don't worry about it - keep posting.